59例30岁以下原发性肺癌的临床及病理

Objective To investigate and analyze the clinical and pathological features of surgical treatment for primary bronchogenic carcinoma in adolescent patients.Methods A retrospective review is presented of patients less than 30 years with surgical treatment of bronchogenic carcinoma between 1969 and 2008.There were59 patients (36 male and 23 female).Mean age was 23 years ( range 8-29 ) .The ratio of men to women patients was 1.7∶1.Forty-nine cases ( 83.0% ) were symptomatic at presentation and 18 cases(30.5% )were misdiagnosed as other diseases.Surgical procedures included radical resection in 46 cases,palliative resection in 3 cases,thoracotomy only for unresectable disease in 7 cases and VATS biopsy in 3 cases.The histological types were 18 adenocarcinomas,13 carcinoids,9 mucoepidermoid carcinoma,5 squamous cell carcimomas,4 small cell lung cancer,3 adenosquamous carcinoma and 4 others.On TNM staging,8 cases in stage Ⅰa,3 cases in stage Ⅰb,9 cases in stage Ⅱ a,12 cases in stage Ⅱb,15 cases in stage Ⅲa,8 cases in stage Ⅲb,4 cases in stageⅣ.Results There were no operative death in radical group.Post-operative atelectasis in 3 cases.One case died from postoperative respiratory failure in explosive group,the postoperative five year survival rate was 27.0%.radical resection group 5-year survival was 35%.Univariate analysis identified TNM stage and surgical procedures as predictors of survival( P <0.05).factors that had no significant effect on overall survival included gender,histologic sbutype and postoperative chemotherapy (P > 0.05).The 5 year survival in stage Ⅰ,Ⅱ,Ⅲa,Ⅲb + Ⅳ were 75.0%,33.3%,14.3% and 0,respectively.The 5 year survival in lobectomy,pneumonectomy and exporsive were 43.0%,18.2% and O,respectively.On multivariate analysis,TNM stage of disease was the only independent predictor of survival ( P =0.000) .Conclusion We should pay attention to adolescent lung cancer and improve the diagnosis rate avoiding of delaying surgical treatment.The five year survival rate of radical resection for adolescent lung cancer was good.They should be treated with aggressive multimodality therapy and surgical resection is the first-line treatment for them.     

58例多原发癌临床分析

Objective to Present 56 cases of multiple primary cancers,to make improvement of diagnosis and treatment.methods A total of 58 patients with multiple primary cancers admitted from 2003 to 2007 were analysed retrospectively in Beijing Tongren Hospital.Results Thirty-five cases were males,with sex ratio of male and female 1.5:1.The median age at the onset of the first disease was 61.5 years (ranged from 27 to 86).The onset age of the two primary cancers was mainly centered around 50～75 years,while half of the second cancers occurred within five years.Conclusion the treatment and prognosis of the two primary cancers are different from that of the recurred and metastatic malignancies and shoule be handled with care.     

58例多原发癌临床分析

Objective to Present 56 cases of multiple primary cancers,to make improvement of diagnosis and treatment.methods A total of 58 patients with multiple primary cancers admitted from 2003 to 2007 were analysed retrospectively in Beijing Tongren Hospital.Results Thirty-five cases were males,with sex ratio of male and female 1.5:1.The median age at the onset of the first disease was 61.5 years (ranged from 27 to 86).The onset age of the two primary cancers was mainly centered around 50～75 years,while half of the second cancers occurred within five years.Conclusion the treatment and prognosis of the two primary cancers are different from that of the recurred and metastatic malignancies and shoule be handled with care.     

58例多原发癌临床分析

Objective to Present 56 cases of multiple primary cancers,to make improvement of diagnosis and treatment.methods A total of 58 patients with multiple primary cancers admitted from 2003 to 2007 were analysed retrospectively in Beijing Tongren Hospital.Results Thirty-five cases were males,with sex ratio of male and female 1.5:1.The median age at the onset of the first disease was 61.5 years (ranged from 27 to 86).The onset age of the two primary cancers was mainly centered around 50～75 years,while half of the second cancers occurred within five years.Conclusion the treatment and prognosis of the two primary cancers are different from that of the recurred and metastatic malignancies and shoule be handled with care.     

58例多原发癌临床分析

Objective to Present 56 cases of multiple primary cancers,to make improvement of diagnosis and treatment.methods A total of 58 patients with multiple primary cancers admitted from 2003 to 2007 were analysed retrospectively in Beijing Tongren Hospital.Results Thirty-five cases were males,with sex ratio of male and female 1.5:1.The median age at the onset of the first disease was 61.5 years (ranged from 27 to 86).The onset age of the two primary cancers was mainly centered around 50～75 years,while half of the second cancers occurred within five years.Conclusion the treatment and prognosis of the two primary cancers are different from that of the recurred and metastatic malignancies and shoule be handled with care.     

58例多原发癌临床分析

Objective to Present 56 cases of multiple primary cancers,to make improvement of diagnosis and treatment.methods A total of 58 patients with multiple primary cancers admitted from 2003 to 2007 were analysed retrospectively in Beijing Tongren Hospital.Results Thirty-five cases were males,with sex ratio of male and female 1.5:1.The median age at the onset of the first disease was 61.5 years (ranged from 27 to 86).The onset age of the two primary cancers was mainly centered around 50～75 years,while half of the second cancers occurred within five years.Conclusion the treatment and prognosis of the two primary cancers are different from that of the recurred and metastatic malignancies and shoule be handled with care.     

58例多原发癌临床分析

Objective to Present 56 cases of multiple primary cancers,to make improvement of diagnosis and treatment.methods A total of 58 patients with multiple primary cancers admitted from 2003 to 2007 were analysed retrospectively in Beijing Tongren Hospital.Results Thirty-five cases were males,with sex ratio of male and female 1.5:1.The median age at the onset of the first disease was 61.5 years (ranged from 27 to 86).The onset age of the two primary cancers was mainly centered around 50～75 years,while half of the second cancers occurred within five years.Conclusion the treatment and prognosis of the two primary cancers are different from that of the recurred and metastatic malignancies and shoule be handled with care.     

59例30岁以下原发性肺癌的临床及病理

Objective To investigate and analyze the clinical and pathological features of surgical treatment for primary bronchogenic carcinoma in adolescent patients.Methods A retrospective review is presented of patients less than 30 years with surgical treatment of bronchogenic carcinoma between 1969 and 2008.There were59 patients (36 male and 23 female).Mean age was 23 years ( range 8-29 ) .The ratio of men to women patients was 1.7∶1.Forty-nine cases ( 83.0% ) were symptomatic at presentation and 18 cases(30.5% )were misdiagnosed as other diseases.Surgical procedures included radical resection in 46 cases,palliative resection in 3 cases,thoracotomy only for unresectable disease in 7 cases and VATS biopsy in 3 cases.The histological types were 18 adenocarcinomas,13 carcinoids,9 mucoepidermoid carcinoma,5 squamous cell carcimomas,4 small cell lung cancer,3 adenosquamous carcinoma and 4 others.On TNM staging,8 cases in stage Ⅰa,3 cases in stage Ⅰb,9 cases in stage Ⅱ a,12 cases in stage Ⅱb,15 cases in stage Ⅲa,8 cases in stage Ⅲb,4 cases in stageⅣ.Results There were no operative death in radical group.Post-operative atelectasis in 3 cases.One case died from postoperative respiratory failure in explosive group,the postoperative five year survival rate was 27.0%.radical resection group 5-year survival was 35%.Univariate analysis identified TNM stage and surgical procedures as predictors of survival( P <0.05).factors that had no significant effect on overall survival included gender,histologic sbutype and postoperative chemotherapy (P > 0.05).The 5 year survival in stage Ⅰ,Ⅱ,Ⅲa,Ⅲb + Ⅳ were 75.0%,33.3%,14.3% and 0,respectively.The 5 year survival in lobectomy,pneumonectomy and exporsive were 43.0%,18.2% and O,respectively.On multivariate analysis,TNM stage of disease was the only independent predictor of survival ( P =0.000) .Conclusion We should pay attention to adolescent lung cancer and improve the diagnosis rate avoiding of delaying surgical treatment.The five year survival rate of radical resection for adolescent lung cancer was good.They should be treated with aggressive multimodality therapy and surgical resection is the first-line treatment for them.     

肺癌根治术后胸壁缺损重建方法的探讨

Objective To study the efficacy of radical surgery for the invasion of chest wall by lung cancers and the different methods of chest wall reconstruction. Methods A retrospective analysis of clinical data was conducted in 27 cases of lung cancer with chest wall invasion in this hospital. 24 cases received lobectomy, 3 cases received pneumonectomy, and all cases received wall reconstruction. The size of chest wall defect after resection ranged from 6.5 cm × 5.4 cm × 5.0 cm to 15.5 cm × 12.5 cm ×10.0 cm. The number of rib resection for each patient ranged from 1 to 4. The reconstructive methods were as follows: using polyester fabric to reconstruct costal pleura, using plexiglass, stainless steel wire and grid-like titanium plate to reconstruct bone defect, and using nearby muscle flap and pedunculated muscle flap to reconstruct muscle defect. Results Pathologic diagnosis was non-small cell lung cancer,including 22 cases of squamous cell carcinomas and 5 adenocarcinomas. There were pulmonary infections in 6 cases, chest hemorrhage in 1 case and chest purulence in 1 case. One-year survival was 77. 9 %,3-yearsurvival was 58.3 %, and 5-year survival was 29. 1 %. Conclusion The lung cancer with chest wall invasion is advisable to make active use of radical surgery. The different methods and repair materials are chosen to reconstruct the chest wall defect, supplemented by comprehensive treatments.     

肺癌根治术后胸壁缺损重建方法的探讨

Objective To study the efficacy of radical surgery for the invasion of chest wall by lung cancers and the different methods of chest wall reconstruction. Methods A retrospective analysis of clinical data was conducted in 27 cases of lung cancer with chest wall invasion in this hospital. 24 cases received lobectomy, 3 cases received pneumonectomy, and all cases received wall reconstruction. The size of chest wall defect after resection ranged from 6.5 cm × 5.4 cm × 5.0 cm to 15.5 cm × 12.5 cm ×10.0 cm. The number of rib resection for each patient ranged from 1 to 4. The reconstructive methods were as follows: using polyester fabric to reconstruct costal pleura, using plexiglass, stainless steel wire and grid-like titanium plate to reconstruct bone defect, and using nearby muscle flap and pedunculated muscle flap to reconstruct muscle defect. Results Pathologic diagnosis was non-small cell lung cancer,including 22 cases of squamous cell carcinomas and 5 adenocarcinomas. There were pulmonary infections in 6 cases, chest hemorrhage in 1 case and chest purulence in 1 case. One-year survival was 77. 9 %,3-yearsurvival was 58.3 %, and 5-year survival was 29. 1 %. Conclusion The lung cancer with chest wall invasion is advisable to make active use of radical surgery. The different methods and repair materials are chosen to reconstruct the chest wall defect, supplemented by comprehensive treatments.     

双原发肺癌外科治疗的疗效分析

目的 探讨双原发肺癌的外科治疗结局和长期生存率.方法 对1999年1月至2009年6月收治的98例双原发肺癌患者的临床资料进行回顾性分析.同时双原发肺癌患者共72例,其中男性54例,女性18例;发病中位年龄66岁.异时双原发肺癌患者26例,其中男性20例,女性6例;第一原发癌发病中位年龄59.5岁,第二原发癌发病中位年龄66岁.同时双原发肺癌患者72例,144个肿瘤病灶,手术方式包括肺叶切除9例,双肺叶切除14例,全肺切除6例,肺叶切除并楔形切除33例,双楔形切除9例,双肺叶切除并楔形切除1例;异时双原发肺癌患者26例,52个肿瘤病灶,手术方式包括肺叶切除31次,双肺叶切除1次,楔形切除10次,全肺切除8次.结果 全组患者术后30 d病死率为0,术后并发症发生率为13.3%.全组患者从术后开始随访至2009年12月,随访率＞90%.全组患者从发现第一原发癌开始计算,其5年生存率为66.4%.异时第一原发肺癌和同时双原发肺癌的5年生存率差异有统计学意义(96.2%比43.0%,P=0.000).异时第二原发肺癌和同时双原发肺癌的5年生存率差异无统计学意义(45.9%比43.0%,P=0.634).结论 外科手术治疗双原发肺癌是合理的,能使患者获得较高的长期生存预期.     

双原发肺癌外科治疗的疗效分析

目的 探讨双原发肺癌的外科治疗结局和长期生存率.方法 对1999年1月至2009年6月收治的98例双原发肺癌患者的临床资料进行回顾性分析.同时双原发肺癌患者共72例,其中男性54例,女性18例;发病中位年龄66岁.异时双原发肺癌患者26例,其中男性20例,女性6例;第一原发癌发病中位年龄59.5岁,第二原发癌发病中位年龄66岁.同时双原发肺癌患者72例,144个肿瘤病灶,手术方式包括肺叶切除9例,双肺叶切除14例,全肺切除6例,肺叶切除并楔形切除33例,双楔形切除9例,双肺叶切除并楔形切除1例;异时双原发肺癌患者26例,52个肿瘤病灶,手术方式包括肺叶切除31次,双肺叶切除1次,楔形切除10次,全肺切除8次.结果 全组患者术后30 d病死率为0,术后并发症发生率为13.3%.全组患者从术后开始随访至2009年12月,随访率＞90%.全组患者从发现第一原发癌开始计算,其5年生存率为66.4%.异时第一原发肺癌和同时双原发肺癌的5年生存率差异有统计学意义(96.2%比43.0%,P=0.000).异时第二原发肺癌和同时双原发肺癌的5年生存率差异无统计学意义(45.9%比43.0%,P=0.634).结论 外科手术治疗双原发肺癌是合理的,能使患者获得较高的长期生存预期.     

双原发肺癌外科治疗的疗效分析

目的 探讨双原发肺癌的外科治疗结局和长期生存率.方法 对1999年1月至2009年6月收治的98例双原发肺癌患者的临床资料进行回顾性分析.同时双原发肺癌患者共72例,其中男性54例,女性18例;发病中位年龄66岁.异时双原发肺癌患者26例,其中男性20例,女性6例;第一原发癌发病中位年龄59.5岁,第二原发癌发病中位年龄66岁.同时双原发肺癌患者72例,144个肿瘤病灶,手术方式包括肺叶切除9例,双肺叶切除14例,全肺切除6例,肺叶切除并楔形切除33例,双楔形切除9例,双肺叶切除并楔形切除1例;异时双原发肺癌患者26例,52个肿瘤病灶,手术方式包括肺叶切除31次,双肺叶切除1次,楔形切除10次,全肺切除8次.结果 全组患者术后30 d病死率为0,术后并发症发生率为13.3%.全组患者从术后开始随访至2009年12月,随访率＞90%.全组患者从发现第一原发癌开始计算,其5年生存率为66.4%.异时第一原发肺癌和同时双原发肺癌的5年生存率差异有统计学意义(96.2%比43.0%,P=0.000).异时第二原发肺癌和同时双原发肺癌的5年生存率差异无统计学意义(45.9%比43.0%,P=0.634).结论 外科手术治疗双原发肺癌是合理的,能使患者获得较高的长期生存预期.     

Multiple primary lung cancers. Results of surgical treatment

During a 13-year period, multiple primary lung cancers were diagnosed in 80 consecutive patients. Forty-four patients had metachronous cancers. The initial pulmonary resection was lobectomy in 36 patients, bilobectomy in 3, pneumonectomy in 1, and wedge excision or segmentectomy in 4. The second pulmonary resection was lobectomy in 16 patients, bilobectomy in 2, completion pneumonectomy in 7, and wedge excision or segmentectomy in 19. There were two 30-day operative deaths (mortality rate, 4.5%). Actuarial 5- and 10-year survival rates after the first pulmonary resection for stage I disease were 55.2% and 27.0%, respectively. Five-year and 10-year survival rates for stage I disease after the second pulmonary resection were 41.0% and 31.5%, respectively. The remaining 36 patients had synchronous cancers. The pulmonary resection was lobectomy in 18 patients, bilobectomy in 3, pneumonectomy in 10, and wedge excision or segmentectomy in 8. There were two 30-day operative deaths (mortality rate, 5.6%). Actuarial overall 5- and 10-year survival rates after pulmonary resection were 15.7% and 13.8%, respectively. We conclude that an aggressive surgical approach is safe and warranted in most patients with multiple primary lung cancers and that the presence of synchronous primary cancers is ominous.     

Subsequent pulmonary resection for bronchogenic carcinoma after pneumonectomy

BACKGROUND: Patients who have undergone a pneumonectomy for bronchogenic carcinoma are at risk of cancer in the contralateral lung. Little information exists regarding the outcome of subsequent lung operation for lung cancer after pneumonectomy. METHODS: The records of all patients who underwent lung resection after pneumonectomy for lung cancer from January 1980 through July 2001 were reviewed. RESULTS: There were 24 patients (18 men and 6 women). Median age was 64 years (range, 43 to 84 years). Median preoperative forced expiratory volume in 1 second was 1.47 L (range, 0.66 to 2.55 L). Subsequent pulmonary resection was performed 2 to 213 months after pneumonectomy (median, 23 months). Wedge excision was performed in 20 patients, segmentectomy in 3, and lobectomy in 1. Diagnosis was a metachronous lung cancer in 14 patients and metastatic lung cancer in 10. Complications occurred in 11 patients (44.0%), and 2 died (operative mortality, 8.3%). Median hospitalization was 7 days (range, 2 to 72 days). Follow-up was complete in all patients and ranged between 6 and 140 months (median, 37 months). Overall 1-, 3-, and 5-year survivals were 87%, 61%, and 40%, respectively. Five-year survival of patients undergoing resection for a metachronous lung cancer (50%) was better than the survival of patients who underwent resection for metastatic cancer (14%; p = 0.14). Five-year survival after a solitary wedge excision was 46% compared with 25% after a more extensive resection (p = 0.54). CONCLUSIONS: Limited pulmonary resection of the contralateral lung after pneumonectomy is associated with acceptable morbidity and mortality. Long-term survival is possible, especially in patients with a metachronous cancer. Solitary wedge excision is the treatment of choice.     

Video-assisted thoracic surgery for metachronous lung cancer

Of 1,391 patients who underwent operation for primary lung cancer between 2000 and 2009, 50 patients (3.6%) had a past history of pulmonary resection for lung cancer. Three patients underwent completion pneumonectomy by thoracotomy and in the other 47 patients video-assisted thoracic surgery (VATS) was performed. We considered 42 cases (3 of completion pneumonectomy and 39 of VATS) to be metachronous lung cancer and 8 cases of VATS to be recurrence by detailed histologic assessment. We examined 39 cases of metachronous lung cancer resected by VATS. The patients were aged 68 +/- 8 years and 4 patients were aged 80-years or more. The surgical procedures performed were lobectomy in 4 patients, segmentectomy in 3, and wedge resection in 40. The operation time was 121 +/- 66 minutes and the blood loss was 67 +/- 140 ml. There were no major complications. We registered 6 deaths during follow-up; 3 were due to disease progression and 3 were due to other causes. The survival rate of the 42 patients including 3 patients who underwent completion pneumonectomy was 74.9% at 5 years. Early detection of metachronous lung cancer and surgical resection offers a favorable prognosis.     

Iterative surgical resections for local recurrent and second primary bronchogenic carcinoma.

OBJECTIVE: To report our experience with repeated pulmonary resection in patients with local recurrent and second primary bronchogenic carcinoma, to assess operative mortality and late outcome. METHODS: The medical records of all patients who underwent a second lung resection for local recurrent and second primary bronchogenic carcinoma from 1978 through 1998 were reviewed. RESULTS: There were 27 patients. They constituted 2.5% of 1059 patients who had undergone lung resection for bronchogenic carcinoma in the same period. Twelve patients (1.1%) (group 1) had a local recurrence that developed at a median interval of 24 months (range 4-83).The first pulmonary resection was lobectomy in ten patients and segmentectomy in two. The second operation consisted of completion pneumonectomy in ten cases, completion lobectomy in one and wedge resection of the right lower lobe after a right upper lobectomy in one. The other 15 patients (1.4%) (group 2) had a new primary lung cancer that developed at a median interval of 45 months (range 21-188).The first pulmonary resection was lobectomy in 12 patients, bilobectomy in one and pneumonectomy in two. The second pulmonary resection was controlateral lobectomy in seven patients, controlateral sleeve lobectomy in two, controlateral pneumonectomy in 1, controlateral wedge resection in four and completion pneumonectomy in one. Overall hospital mortality was 7.4%, including one intraoperative and one postoperative death in group 1 and 2, respectively. Five-year survival after the second operation was 15.5 and 43% with a median survival of 26 and 49 months in groups 1 and 2, respectively (P=ns). CONCLUSIONS: Long-term results justify complete work-up of patients with local recurrent and second primary bronchogenic carcinoma. Treatment should be surgical, if there is no evidence of distant metastasis and the patients are in good health. Early detection of second lesions is possible with an aggressive follow-up conducted maximally at 4 months intervals for the first 2 years and 6 months intervals thereafter throughout life.     

Surgical treatment for bilateral multiple lung cancers]

We reviewed 21 patients with bilateral multiple bronchogenic carcinomas. Eleven of them had synchronous carcinomas and 10 had metachronous carcinomas. We treated 6 patients with lobectomy and wedge resection under median sternotomy synchronously, and 2 patients with lobectomy on both lungs under standard thoracotomy, 2 patients with lobectomy and wedge resection, 1 patient with segmentectomy on both lung, 1 patient with lobectomy and segmentectomy, 1 patient with pneumonectomy and wedge resection, and 8 patients with lobectomy and thoracoscopic wedge resection on each lung metachronously. Two patients who had lobectomy on both lungs were dead, one of whom of pulmonary edema 2 weeks after second operation and the other of respiratory failure 3 years after second operation. We concluded that lobectomy on both lungs are not recommended because of high mortality rate (10%) and the limited resection under thoracoscopic surgery should be considered to treat the other contra lateral primary lung cancers.     

Surgical management of metachronous bronchial carcinoma

Objective: To assess the results of surgery for the treatment of metachronous bronchial carcinoma. Methods: From 1985 to 1999, 38 patients were operated on for a metachronous lung carcinoma, accordingly to the criteria of Martini. All tumors were staged using the new International Classification System revised in 1997. Results: Diagnosis of the second cancer was done at radiological follow-up in 30 asymptomatic patients. Seventeen metachronous locations were ipsilateral. Histology of the metachronous lesion was the same as that of the first tumour in 23 patients (60%). The first resection was a lobectomy (n=35), a pneumonectomy (n=2) and a carinal resection (n=1). The second one was a wedge resection (n=7), a segmentectomy (n=3), a lingulectomy (n=2), a lobectomy (n=9), a bilobectomy (n=1), and a pneumonectomy (n=16). There were five in-hospital deaths (13%). Completion pneumonectomy was performed in 15 patients, with one postoperative death (7%). The overall estimated 5 and 10-years actuarial survival rates from the treatment of the first cancer were 70 and 47% respectively. The 5-year survival rate after the treatment of the second cancer was 32% (median survival: 31 months), including the operative mortality. Survival was negatively affected by a resection interval of less than 2 years and the performance of atypical lung sparing pulmonary resection for the treatment of the second cancer. Conclusions: Good long-term results are achievable by the means of a second pulmonary resection in selected patients with metachronous lung cancer. Optimal cancer operations should be applied whenever functionally possible.     

Multiple primary lung carcinomas: prognosis and treatment

From 1955 to 1990, 111 patients have been treated for multiple primary lung carcinomas. Criteria for diagnosis were: (1) different histology (n = 44); or (2) same histology, but disease-free interval at least 2 years (n = 39), origin from carcinoma in situ (n = 19), or metachronous disease in different lobe (n = 9) with no cancer in common lymphatics or extrapulmonary metastasis at the time of diagnosis. The second cancer was synchronous in 33 patients (30%) and metachronous in 78 (70%). Metachronous disease developed at a median interval of 48 months. Five-year survival for patients with metachronous and synchronous disease from the time of initial diagnosis of cancer was 70% and 44%, and 10-year survival was 42% and 23%, respectively. Survival after the development of a metachronous lesion was 23% at 5 years. Survival from the time of initial diagnosis was significantly better for metachronous versus synchronous, late (24 month disease-free interval) versus early metachronous disease, and adenocarcinoma versus epidermoid carcinoma. The first cancer was completely resected in 103 patients (93%), but complete resection of a metachronous tumor was possible in only 54 patients (69%). Complete resection of second primary cancers resulted in significantly (p less than 0.0001) prolonged 5-year survival compared with incomplete resection (38% versus 9%). Excluding patients requiring pneumonectomy, initial resection limited subsequent resection in only 7 patients (9%) with metachronous disease. We conclude that patients surviving treatment of primary lung cancers require lifelong screening for multiple primary lung carcinoma, and complete resection is recommended whenever possible.